GW2 and EBay: A speculative analysis thread.

[Mordakai]

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

...Um so is this true or not? I haven't found it in the article yet...

I, too, have re-read the article. As far as I know, it's not true. I can't imagine a MMOPRG getting rid of gold, as revolutionary as that would be, too many people enjoy the trading aspect of MMORPGs.

And honestly, I don't see any problem with it. I would have never been able to buy a Kuunivang if trading wasn't an option....

Coron Ironclaw: I don't think lyrasong, or anybody else here is against an Auction House.

So, yes, we all want to see an Auction House where trading is easier!

[Coran Ironclaw]

Originally Posted by Coran Ironclaw

you cant transfer items to guildmates => ok, this is actually the only issue i see.

so we need to evaluate if a online buyers-free game is worth not being able to transfer items to guildmates.

I go for the online buyer-free game.

just replace "guildmates" with "friends".

==============

about the false-high bids,
that another issue yes, i dont have an idea now for it.

==============

Originally Posted by Mordakai

Coron Ironclaw: I don't think lyrasong, or anybody else here is against an Auction House.

So, yes, we all want to see an Auction House where trading is easier!

i am not suggesting just an auction house, the only way to get rid online buying is removing all direct trading. but the solution to not having to get absolutely everything you want by yourself is an auction house and/or traders.

let me well write my suggestion then:
All trades done through NPCs and auction houses only and no inter-player trading or drop/pickup of items.

[lyra_song]

i am not suggesting just an auction house, the only way to get rid online buying is removing all direct trading. but the solution to not having to get absolutely everything you want by yourself is an auction house and/or traders.

let me well write my suggestion then:
All trades done through NPCs and auction houses only and no inter-player trading or drop/pickup of items

Yes. The only way to get rid of online GOLD purchasing would be removing direct trading.

However that would NOT remove account purchasing.

$100 account with 100,000,000 plat. Start the game with a headstart!

See?

========

Now you remove direct trading and use NPC trading + an auction system?

Ive already shown you that shill bidding can be used to transfer money. This negates the purpose of your removing direct trading.

========

All the idea does is restrict honest players.

It doesnt stop the root of the problem.

Players who buy gold.

[Jeremy Untouchable]

leave the tradeing and gold system like it is and ban bots.....give a few longstanding members of comunuity GM status, Farming bots wouldnt stand a chance.. make it so you have to have 3 wispers with no reply, and a character that is actively farming and bam, no reply=banned, kind of harse, but it would solve it...

[Coran Ironclaw]

ok...

now, we must address that selling items-gold is something different than selling complete accounts.
They are, although very related, 2 separated problems.

another thing, i think many here are somehow forgetting the point of the thread, this is speculative for being implemented on GW2.

Originally Posted by MSecorsky

Now, let's consider possible ways to neuter EBay's affect on a new GW. As we all know all too well, you can buy, for example, GW gold on EBay, which is gathered by farmers through slave labor in foreign countries blah blah blah...
How would you design a game to prevent this from happening? What changes, no matter how radical (we're for the most part stuck with a life-long capitalistic training)?

being that told, if there would be such a game, it is needed:

* A way to prevent account selling. (this being a separate problem)
* NO direct in-game trading of any kind.

Account issue:
I dont know much of this things, but maybe it can be done like you can only access to your game account using the original CD that came with the game.
I know there are always hacks or that kind of things, but maybe that could work or something like that. it must be hardware related i think, so it cant be given away easily.

now forgetting about account, let's focus on

money and items online selling:
no ingame direct trading is a must. So i can only think on 3 possible options:

1==> no tradding at all. if you want something, go and get it by your own means.
The game must be designed according to this, every item must have a right path to be attainable, so there will be many collectors to get max items, there can be nice items quest rewards, and rare items can be droped from bosses (maybe better rate) and many highly looked items could be achieve in a series of missions and quests (something like tormented weapons). Completely avoid the "very lucky factor" for rare weapons and the like.
Gold wouldn't be needed.

2==> Big Auction House. This is nice but it has the flaw of that weird word "shill bidding" (actually 2 words), so it is not that simple.
maybe there could be a tweak to fix that, but i dont have it now.

3==>Traders for Everything. Even though The Herbalizer made a nice explanation on how this wouldnt work. This can easily work if the game is designed for it.
Every item with intention to be tradable (quest items can be left outside) will have a type of trader.
Actually it could be just 1 npc with sections like the priest of balthazar.
we already have a sistem to separate a weapon from insignea from mods, so for weapons there wouldnt be like 252 for a single sword, there could be just like 5 type of a wing blade sword req 9, req 10, req 11, req 12 and req 13. Then on a different section inscriptions the numbers can be fixed to be just like 2 or 3 degrees for that 15% instead of every point. for example 10%- 13% and 15%. (you really dont need more)
and continue like that.
The only necessary thing would be able to separete a weapon in part without any risk at all. So you can sell all components on different parts.

Originally Posted by The herbalizer

I bet Anet would love employing staff to research what prices the item traders should buy and sell items at. Gee, tens of thousands of possible items to have a price put on them sounds fun. I somehow don’t think a few staff can do all of this maybe tens of people will be needed to work out and set prices. The costs will be huge. Anet does not lose anything due to gold selling.

i never understood this paragraph, prices on traders are not manipulated by anet, there is an algoritm that evaluates the offer and the demand and modifies the price accordingly.


you cant transfer items to friends => ok, this is actually the only issue i see. but according to the intention of the thread, it is needed.

[lyra_song]

Originally Posted by Coran Ironclaw

ok...

now, we must address that selling items-gold is something different than selling complete accounts.
They are, although very related, 2 separated problems.

Yes and your modification of Jaziel's idea solves neither problems.

Get this through your head.

THIS IDEA DOES NOT SOLVE THE PROBLEM

It does not stop anything.
It does not solve anything.

All this does is limit the player on what the player can do.

Guild Wars 2 is trying to remove some of the limits Guild Wars. They are going to allow us to walk, climb, swim, etc. They are giving us a higher level cap, a more persistent world.

This idea is a full ass-backwards step towards limitation, not player freedom.

[Enix]

Nurf the 55. Period, end of discussion.

[lyra_song]

Originally Posted by Enix

Nurf the 55. Period, end of discussion.

You nerf one build, they will find another.

You can make more money with a E/A or a A/E than a 55 nowadays. Theres TONS of farming builds out there.

All this will do is ruin the fun of legitimate players.

Besides....we are speculating about GW2.

[jshrimp3]

I don't have much time, so I didn't read the whole thread, but I did skim it. I just wanted to say that in case I'm tossing out an idea that has already been proposed.

How about an anonymous auction house? Everything is handled through the auction house as normal, no direct trading, but also you don't know who the buyer and seller is, so people can't orchestrate things such as selling $10 worth of gold and putting up a dummy item, because you won't know which pile of glittering dust is from the gold farmer. Of course you can track your items for sale and items you've bid on, but you don't see who you're buying or selling from. Maybe you can allow direct trading among people in your guild (and alliance?) and your friends, so you can still loan friends an item or gold. And no dropping of items, as has been said with the other "no direct trading" idea.

Of course then you could still buy/sell gold if you add the person to your friends list or join their guild. Which really punches a whole in my idea, but I haven't seen a better idea yet. If eBaying is still a huge problem, maybe get rid of all direct trading?

[lyra_song]

Originally Posted by jshrimp3

Of course then you could still buy/sell gold if you add the person to your friends list or join their guild. Which really punches a whole in my idea, but I haven't seen a better idea yet. If eBaying is still a huge problem, maybe get rid of all direct trading?

Then it still wouldnt solve account selling. Buy an account, farm the bejeezus out of it, sell the account when it has enough gold.

If you want to solve the problem, go to the source.

The players who dont have enough time to play, but want the high end stuff.
The players who dont have the patience but want the high end stuff.
The players who dont have the know how, but want the high end stuff.
All willing to pay for in game gold.

[Jaziel]

First, the "account selling" refutation of the "no trades between players idea" is just a straw-man argument. There is no reasonable way to include the selling of accounts in limiting gold selling (anyway, with no trade between players you can only buy one account off a gold-seller, buy any more and you have to make new characters on that new account to use the gold...gold sellers won't last long using only this risky-for-the-purchaser method of providing gold).

Second, Herbalizer, you're complicating the Guild Wars method of qualifying items. There is already a system in place that differentiates "base-mods" from inscriptions providing other mods. There is NO reason why this couldn't be expanded to include ALL mods. A sword that is sold to a trader could then be broken down into "skin" with max stats (no point having non-max stats for sale in GW, easy enough to get by on drops for the non-max lvling part of the game), attachable base-mods, and attachable inscriptions. This is only ONE extra step, and produces less than the current number of attachable inscriptions for the attachable base-mods side of things. The sword (or whatever) could be sold intact to an NPC and the breakdown of the sword's mods would be added up and given to the player as sale value. The individual mods could then enter the NPC economy to be purchased separately and constructed into any of the combos you mentioned.

Third, I'm not saying it would be more *enjoyable* for a lot of players (ie. the ones thriving off the current system) to have this system in place, but it would limit gold sellers (to only selling full accounts, which wouldn't be at all cost-effective), with the side benefit of stopping scammers and running at the same time.

Lastly, I'm going to qualify my statements by saying that the CURRENT GW is very conducive to making these sorts of changes, I'm not saying that this will apply to GW2! If GW2 is built similarly to GW1 then it might, but even something as "minor" as adding player crafting immediately negates the no-player-trades idea off the bat. (It was just an idea, and funnily enough I read back and someone else suggested similar before I did, great minds think alike...it's an idea I've had ever since I saw the rune/materials traders back in the early days of my GW time.)

[Coran Ironclaw]

Originally Posted by lyra_song

Yes and your modification of Jaziel's idea solves neither problems.

Get this through your head.

THIS IDEA DOES NOT SOLVE THE PROBLEM

It does not stop anything.
It does not solve anything.

All this does is limit the player on what the player can do.

Guild Wars 2 is trying to remove some of the limits Guild Wars. They are going to allow us to walk, climb, swim, etc. They are giving us a higher level cap, a more persistent world.

This idea is a full ass-backwards step towards limitation, not player freedom.

Lyra SMASH!!
-----

Not because you wouldn't be able to give a flower to your cyber-boyfriend it doesn't mean our propositions does not solve anything.
Get this through your head.

Originally Posted by lyra_song

Then it still wouldnt solve account selling. Buy an account, farm the bejeezus out of it, sell the account when it has enough gold.

No, maybe it wouldn't but that's a separate problem.

Originally Posted by lyra_song

If you want to solve the problem, go to the source.

The players who dont have enough time to play, but want the high end stuff.
The players who dont have the patience but want the high end stuff.
The players who dont have the know how, but want the high end stuff.
All willing to pay for in game gold.

Nice, now I know the source of the problem...
but i dont see any kind of proposal of solution there. It is not like you are going to everyone home and smash them if they buy online.

-------

Actually i came with an idea thinking on the flowers thing.

There could be some tradable lesser-comsumibles items.
Like flowers, beers, maybe other gifts, candy, salads, fire works, etc.

this would be the only tradable items, they wouldnt be sold (no money transfer), only transfered (gifted) to friends.

there could even be some very difficult to obtain gifts if you really want to give something special.

could this items be selled online?
yes, but only this kind of items, not the real "high end stuff."

[lyra_song]

Originally Posted by Coran Ironclaw

<-snipped for shortness. I mean...just look a few posts up....->

I will tell you a little story.

There was this man.

Everyday this man had a huge headache. He woke up, he felt it, he went to sleep, he felt it. It was a painful headache.

So one day he went to the doctor. He tells the doctor. "Hey doc, i have this huge friggin headache. Can you help me out?"

The doctor takes a minute and looks at his cabinet and hands the man some medication. "Heres some extra strength aspirin. It should relieve your headache. Take some when you need it."

The man thanked the doctor and went home.

And so it continued. The man got a headache, and he'd take the pills, and he'd feel better. The next day, he did it again.

The pills worked at relieving his headache and he was able to continue his day.

One day, he came back to the doctor. "Hey doc, ive been taking these pills for a while, and they really help, but can you stop my headaches from happening in the first place?"

The doctor laughed. "Oh why didn't you say so, i was wondering when you would ask, because theres a railroad spike sticking out he back of your head."



Moral of the story?

Treat the problem, not the symptom.

No matter what you do, if you dont stop the source, its just gonna keep coming and coming. All you will do is restrict player freedom.

Jaziel, my argument against you is completely valid because I am looking at the whole situation.

Your solution is not a solution. It is a bandaid on a wound that requires stitches and cauterization.

Account selling and gold buying are intrinsically linked. Any sort of changes to the game to combat any of it, without combating the source is useless.

Gold selling, gold buying, "chinese bot farmers", account selling, weapons selling all for REAL money is caused by the same thing.

Originally Posted by lyra_song

The players who dont have enough time to play, but want the high end stuff.
The players who dont have the patience but want the high end stuff.
The players who dont have the know how, but want the high end stuff.
All willing to pay for in game gold.

The only interesting proposal is the anonymous auction thing. But even that is breakable.

Post up an auction for a stack of 378 glittering dust with a minimum bid of 398. The gold seller bids exactly 470. The buyer acknowledges that as the "code bid" through email. The gold seller then shills the auction to the determined price to transfer the gold.

My idea, although unrealistic, over the top, and difficult to implement deals with the PROBLEM and NOT the symptoms.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...4&postcount=48

[jshrimp3]

You will never completely and entirely eliminate the selling of items, in some way or other. Ever. Or at the very least, you can't without severely limiting other things, such as making it so you can't drop or trade items with any player ever. But that just sucks.

But we can limit it. Sure, the anonymous auction isn't completely and entirely foolproof. But it will deter users, as it makes it more difficult. Hell, if they don't have the patience to make gold, why would they have the patience to jump through a dozen hoops to get it?

And also, you keep saying treat the problem, not the symptom. I agree, that would be ideal, but how do you suppose we prevent people from being impatient, lazy, busy, or intelligent? If the problem is impossible to solve, concealing the symptoms is the best we can do.

And as for your idea, there are several holes in it. First of all, it requires more manpower to catch people in the wrong, and thus more money, time, and work. Second, as someone said some time ago, the EULA is already a binding contract, so your idea really does nothing. Besides. Downloading copyrighted music from Limewire or BitTorrent is illegal. Oh wait, the fact that it's illegal doesn't stop anyone from doing it. At all. Sorry, but your idea solves nothing, is useless, and on top of that is a huge hassle for the consumer and Anet.

[lyra_song]

Originally Posted by jshrimp3

And as for your idea, there are several holes in it. First of all, it requires more manpower to catch people in the wrong, and thus more money, time, and work. Second, as someone said some time ago, the EULA is already a binding contract, so your idea really does nothing. Besides. Downloading copyrighted music from Limewire or BitTorrent is illegal. Oh wait, the fact that it's illegal doesn't stop anyone from doing it. At all. Sorry, but your idea solves nothing, is useless, and on top of that is a huge hassle for the consumer and Anet.

My idea has lots of holes. Ive already acknowledged that....its expensive. it requires a lot manpower and lawyers as well as dealing with international laws.

But Ive also acknowledged the cause of the problem as what should be fixed.

It is impossible to stop people from being impatient, lazy or deceitful. But we can make them think twice before they do it.

Yes speeding is illegal and people do it. But when they get caught there are penalties. Get caught enough times and you lose your license.

Gold buying/Selling is illegal only in the game. If the EULA was a true binding contract, those gold seller sites should have been taken down with cease and desist letters already (granted their hosts are inside of countries where such laws can be enforced).

When people get caught, what happens to them? Nothing. A banned guild wars account is replaceable and doesn't hurt the person who broke the EULA. You got banned. Big whoop. Buy another account.

My proposition seeks to give fangs and claws to Anet outside of the game.

Account is banned. You are blacklisted. Your identity is blacklisted and your IP is blacklisted.

Buy another account you say? Use another identity? Well buddy, if the EULA was a real contract, thats whats called...um fraud.

A website that woubd be selling gold is breaking the law in more ways than one (copyright violation, contract violation) and is more easily brought to court.

Am i advocating a scare tactic? No.

I'm simply putting a REAL burden of responsibility on every player for the things they do in the game, because it might affect them IRL.

My idea is applicable to everything from racist jerks in game to gold buyers.

[jshrimp3]

The EULA is a real binding contract. Do you not understand that? It's just that it's too much bother to enforce. ArenaNet can send cease and desist letters to any and all sites that sell in-game gold for real money.

But, to put it quite frankly, no one cares enough.

[lyra_song]

Originally Posted by jshrimp3

The EULA is a real binding contract. Do you not understand that? It's just that it's too much bother to enforce. ArenaNet can send cease and desist letters to any and all sites that sell in-game gold for real money.

But, to put it quite frankly, no one cares enough.

The only EULA's that have been found enforceable in court are the physical EULAs that come shrink wrapped with software.

Those "If you open this, you agree to this EULA" type things.

I am not aware of any electronic EULAs that have been found enforceable in court.

But please, feel free to prove me wrong.

[jshrimp3]

You can find more information on the subject, but it's largely all related to the concept of online signatures, or electronic signatures and their validity.

http://www.ecommerce-guide.com/solut...hp/9561_413551

Welcome to 6+ years ago.

[VGJustice]

Originally Posted by jshrimp3

You can find more information on the subject, but it's largely all related to the concept of online signatures, or electronic signatures and their validity.

http://www.ecommerce-guide.com/solut...hp/9561_413551

Welcome to 6+ years ago.

That's nice. Did you know that several countries don't make people adhere to that? And did you know that hackers can still bypass that entirely?

Here's the real problem: There is no earthly way of preventing the sale of game items, game currency, or the game saves themselves without rendering the game inoperable. The EULA can only do so much, and it's very difficult to uphold that as a private company. And while it's very good that big companies like ebay are refusing to sell said items, that will never stop those that sell the items from just making their own web site out of a country that doesn't care about that or one that willfully disobeys the will of companies. The problem is not digital, it's ideological. It's one group of people willfully doing things that are illegal or immoral because they can or because there's money to be made. I'm sorry, but I do not see any solution to this problem.

[Exoudeous]

I dont see what all the fuss is, sure, ebay selling is bad, but its effect on the game is very small.

It is a problem in traditioanl mmos when the can actually effect teh market by becoming the only ones that can get the high end loot by camping and giving little to no chance for a normal player to get them. thus they dictat the price of it.

not the case in guild wars because no oen can steal your mob.

and yes i know there will be non instacned areas in gw2, but from the looks of it anyone can attack mobs in those places so no one can steal your mobs there either.